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Post by valorius on Jun 27, 2021 18:27:51 GMT
So when naval units move their max movement rate, they do not move in a 'straight' line. They move diagonally 1/2 of their max movement in one direction, then the other half diagonally back to their target hex.
This can cause for some very peculiar problems when moving along enemy coast lines and when trying to do a straight line search.
Would it be possible to alter naval units movement so that they move more 'straight'? It would be very helpful and make naval movement and searching much more realistic.
If you need more details as to what im talking about let me know, but i would imagine any experienced player of PGX has noticed this phenomenon.
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Post by teophrastusbombastus on Oct 17, 2021 20:44:16 GMT
So when naval units move their max movement rate, they do not move in a 'straight' line. They move diagonally 1/2 of their max movement in one direction, then the other half diagonally back to their target hex.
This can cause for some very peculiar problems when moving along enemy coast lines and when trying to do a straight line search.
Would it be possible to alter naval units movement so that they move more 'straight'? It would be very helpful and make naval movement and searching much more realistic.
If you need more details as to what im talking about let me know, but i would imagine any experienced player of PGX has noticed this phenomenon.
The "path choosing algorithm"... Any of these hex games has one and it never pleases everybody. The way to go around that is a system that allows the player to move hex by hex but then much less people would play because that would be "micro management". I guess, in theory, it is possible to have a different algorithm for naval units. Left-right-left-right the whole way, instead of left until the middle and right until the end. (Or vice versa) At the same time I'm under the impression it would "close a hole just to open another one". Of course, J. C. will know for sure... |
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Post by valorius on Oct 18, 2021 0:49:14 GMT
Yes- left right left right (or up down up down) the whole way to the target hex would be much better.
If you use the naval movement modifiers this becomes a very, very pronounced issue.
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Post by teophrastusbombastus on Oct 18, 2021 9:44:59 GMT
Yes- left right left right (or up down up down) the whole way to the target hex would be much better. If you use the naval movement modifiers this becomes a very, very pronounced issue. Right; with hexes the direction we see we are going isn't always the one we would be going in a "plain" map. "Sideways" may be also "up" or "down". And the longer the movement the more noticeable it gets. The "thing" is there for the slower units as well, we just don't take notice, most time. |
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Post by valorius on Oct 18, 2021 17:47:14 GMT
Yep.
Have you heard from jeff lately? I figured he was on summer break and would be back as the weather got colder.
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Post by jeff on Jul 13, 2022 20:08:00 GMT
Naval Movement could be changed if it was really a problem ? So far, I have not had any issues. Yes, it moves a bit weird, but that is the way
the maze gets solved. I could move in a straight line until it hit an obstacle. But, that would cause some serious errors. You might move 100 hexes in a straight line
then find out you should have sailed West a few turns before turning north. The maze solving algorithms can really take a LOOONG time in the pacific.
BTW...Theophrastus you mentioned how long it took Naval units to cross the pacific. I upped the Naval Speed to test. But giving them too much movement factors caused a
lot of issues with finding targets. The area needed checking was very large.
One thing to do, is change the turns to 1 day each ! Ha Ha...that would cut the time to 1/3 of old speed. No reason the turns should be 3 days. I think I just arbritrarily
pulled that cause it sounded good. Ha Ha....
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Post by valorius on Mar 21, 2023 17:07:19 GMT
Naval Movement could be changed if it was really a problem ? So far, I have not had any issues. Yes, it moves a bit weird, but that is the way the maze gets solved. I could move in a straight line until it hit an obstacle. But, that would cause some serious errors. You might move 100 hexes in a straight line then find out you should have sailed West a few turns before turning north. The maze solving algorithms can really take a LOOONG time in the pacific. BTW...Theophrastus you mentioned how long it took Naval units to cross the pacific. I upped the Naval Speed to test. But giving them too much movement factors caused a lot of issues with finding targets. The area needed checking was very large. One thing to do, is change the turns to 1 day each ! Ha Ha...that would cut the time to 1/3 of old speed. No reason the turns should be 3 days. I think I just arbritrarily pulled that cause it sounded good. Ha Ha.... Naval movement as it currently exists is a real pain in the butt near islands or coastlines. The huge 45 degree movement arcs are most annoying. I guess it could be said that it mimics zig zagging, but it causes constant annoyances with running into the influence zone of land units cutting turns short. I honestly think naval units should have phased movement, like recon units. BTW, i agree that 3 days turns are too long. Theo has also said the same in other posts. 1 day turns would make way more sense, IMO. |
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Post by jeff on Mar 22, 2023 13:44:20 GMT
You have a point I was playing with the other day. Naval units should not put zones of control on land, and land units should they put zones of control in oceans ?
I think forts maybe could exert ZoC into Ocean...channels, straights, etc.
It was mainly Subs I was thinking of changing ... I will remove submarine ZoC from land hexes. Heck...the land units probably would not know the subs were there
unless they surfaced, and started shelling the place.
Naval phased move...hmmmm that too could be interesting.
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Post by teophrastusbombastus on Mar 22, 2023 19:53:22 GMT
You have a point I was playing with the other day. Naval units should not put zones of control on land, and land units should they put zones of control in oceans ? I think forts maybe could exert ZoC into Ocean...channels, straights, etc. It was mainly Subs I was thinking of changing ... I will remove submarine ZoC from land hexes. Heck...the land units probably would not know the subs were there unless they surfaced, and started shelling the place. Naval phased move...hmmmm that too could be interesting. I'd say in the event of sighting between land and naval units both parties would tend to break away from each other most of the time. Ships will usually have range advantage and seek to profit from that, backing away from the possibility land units may have some surprise ready. Land units will probably back off to areas outside the ships view if they can. Save if we're talking landing... And yes, Forts cannot back away... and will be there to shoot at the ships. But that will only stop them if they're hit, otherwise they'd either accelerate out of the area or slow down for evasive maneuvers. Submarines (WWII's) were relatively small boats so they could come very close to shore, save any peculiarity of a given coastal region (reefs / shoals / artificial obstacles). However that could only be done without a huge amount of increased risk if there was certainty the enemy had no ASW means close enough. The problem is that a sub needs water below the keel to run down if attacked. Which it has very little of when it is 50 meters away from a beach... I think there were more instances of Submarines shore bombarding in WWI than WWII. But I remember reading a reference to a WWII US sub making the first ever rocket bombardment from aboard a submersible. Probably in the Grey Wolves manual. The mod for Silent Hunter III. In the game it is extremely dangerous to go very near enemy coasts especially during the day. After the appearance of centimetric radar it gets dangerous having anything above water line at any time. Aye! Phased movement looks like the ideal solution, from player point of view. A compromise could be giving the phased movement only to smaller types. Make them sort of naval recon for the big beasts. That would allow sending in and getting out a destroyer / PT, effecting the recon in between. And after that deciding what to do with the big ones. This would unbalance things in favor of ships. But would be an incentive to employ light ships, and risk them. |
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Post by valorius on Mar 23, 2023 0:05:25 GMT
I could live with phased movement just for the "light capital ship class" , ie, destroyers and light cruisers. Light cruisers are historically the scouting force for the battle line anyway, I think. So that makes total sense.
It would also help with destroyers engaged in sub hunting.
To maintain a semblance of zig zagging, perhaps give a general movement pattern of hexes 3 in one direction, 3 hexes in the other, rinse and repeat, instead of 1/2 of total movement in one direction and the rest in the other, as it is currently. It's just really limiting as it is now.
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Post by teophrastusbombastus on Mar 23, 2023 10:42:58 GMT
I could live with phased movement just for the "light capital ship class" , ie, destroyers and light cruisers. Light cruisers are historically the scouting force for the battle line anyway, I think. So that makes total sense. It would also help with destroyers engaged in sub hunting. To maintain a semblance of zig zagging, perhaps give a general movement pattern of hexes 3 in one direction, 3 hexes in the other, rinse and repeat, instead of 1/2 of total movement in one direction and the rest in the other, as it is currently. It's just really limiting as it is now. A "short wave" zig zag... Recovering an earlier reference to turn duration just to hit a nail on the side of that: One issue that has surfaced in the past at the Open Gen community is "Pacific Gen style night turns". Was never implemented. In PGX too but there is reference to Level Bombers night strikes. So, an issue that could be thought about is extending or not night strikes to other classes or individual units. As usual I'm thinking first of all about special ops. At the limit it could be everybody but that could bring us close to having two games in one. And the realization it could make more sense having night turns. If all units may chose between day and night all will tend for the choice that gives better prospects. It would be having two games to play just one... But at the microscopic level there are some questions that may be "academically" interesting, not necessarily worth really introducing. Emulating an advantage for Fighters with night capabilities against Level Bombers. That's a very specific one... just some individual types within a class having a special advantage against another class. And should it be always or just when the Level Bomber has just effected a night attack? Another case that came to my mind is emulating night para drops. A good way to limit losses from (non night) Fighters, but if it's just better without a "counterweight" players will always jump at night. The "counterweight" here could be a random chance of the night drop resulting in a "scattered" unit and the need for the unit to remain immobile for "regrouping", for at least one turn. The advantages could be immunity against Fighters and/or a chance for "submarine type" invisibility after the drop. |
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Post by jeff on Mar 23, 2023 14:40:23 GMT
I think I got a nice fix. A unit does not exert a ZoC into a hex unless it can move there. Naval units do not exert ZoC into ground hexes, and land units do not exert
ZoC into Ocean hexes now. Tested it yesterday afternoon. Seems to be working pretty well. I will get this version posted today sometime. Took forts supporting fire out.
Made them a bit too powerful. Kept a 3 range fort. Infantry close attack bonus. (No movement factors expended before attacking into close terrain.)
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Post by valorius on Mar 23, 2023 19:28:54 GMT
right now my 5 remaining biggest requests for changes:
An "allow 1/2 half strength units" option box on the F2 page
Phased movement for light capital ships
Correct bug that lets units out of ammo/fuel move and attack.
The airfield build up process we discussed before (this could also be applied to ports, honestly. A massive major port like Scapa floe or Antwerp only allowing 15 points worth of ships to enter is not the best situation ever).
And finally, more oil resource hexes.
Game is progressing very well Jeff!
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Post by valorius on Jun 19, 2023 20:53:00 GMT
Have you ever gotten a chance to work on this particular issue jeff?
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Post by jeff on Jun 28, 2023 22:12:49 GMT
Half strength unit button done. Next update.
different types of airfields. Hmmm….trying to figure out how to do that. I have tried some different approaches, but ran into snags.
For a while airfields that were built during the game were ‘units’ placed by engineers. Like mines.
I will go back and work on that appproach. Modifying the map data has had some drawbacks too.
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