AI for conquered hex troop deployment not working right

[valorius]

OK, so im on turn 153 of a game as the Axis.

As i like to do, i checked in on the US (and other countries- see post below for the allies), which is completely neutral thus far in the war.

The US forces:

Fighters: 271 units!  
In comparison, the Luftwaffe is 18 units strong!

Battleships: 162!!!!!
The Kreigsmarine has 1 battleship!!!

Destroyers/Light Cruisers: 125!
The Kreigsmarine has 6 light cruisers!!!

I am very good at PGX....but there is no way on earth i could possibly ever defeat the US at it's current production level. It is getting 9800 production per turn!!! (this is with only 152 points of R&D investment by the US)

I have AI production set to 2, so part of it is that, but i have to set it at 2 for the other nations to be a challenge. 

The US needs to be scaled way back. Like way, way back.

[valorius]

Erm....

So checking the Allies....same turn:

556 fighter units. And all of them super early war obsolete cheap units.

What are they doing with them? No idea...Not using them against Germany, the only country the Allies are at war with.

ZERO fighter interference from the allies in my operations. Now, I am using air defense units, but there is literally NO amount of AD you can use to protect yourself from that many fighters.

Burn up a few dozen sqns at most to take out my Air defense, and they have literally hundreds of fighter sqns left to completely wipe out my field army in a single turn.

Seriously: with 556 fighters i could defeat my own Axis field armies in a single turn. Heck, i could do that with 1/5th as many fighters. 

I have to give AI countries Production value 2 just to make them competitive, but in reality they are using all that production to stash HUGE HUGE numbers of fighters literally thousands of miles from the fighting.

For instance, france and the UK have stashed literally HUNDREDS of fighter sqns on the syrian border with Turkey. I dont have any forces within a thousand miles of there. Yet probably half the MASSIVE Allied airforce is sitting there, doing absolutely nothing- and they are adding more on every turn.

Meanwhile, Paris and London are completely undefended. These huge airforces are totally absent from the fighting in France.

So i'm having to give the AI massive amounts of prestige to make them even competitive because they are spending their money so absolutely idiotically.

It's not even hard to defeat all these fighters stationed in the middle of nowhere. I just drive up and take the airfield and all other surrounding airfields, and they all just sit there doing absolutely nothing until they run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.

It's preposterous.


The AI is just absolutely, completely broken when it comes to air power.

The land warfare AI is pretty good now.

[jeff]

9800 production per turn ? That should not be. Let me check that.

[teophrastusbombastus]

Apr 14, 2021 0:15:30 GMT valorius said:

ZERO fighter interference from the allies in my operations. Now, I am using air defense units, but there is literally NO amount of AD you can use to protect yourself from that many fighters.

Phrase 1 - I wish that at least once I would get such a thing.

Phrase 2 - About that I made reference just a few days ago.
When they keep on coming until they shred whatever they have found you can just watch.
In the old days of playing v758, sometimes it was even better because the B-17s paved the way for Tacs to finish the job much more efficiently than fighters.
I just watched my lines of 8.8s at 15 strength melt away... and usually the units they were trying to protect went next turn.
In other matches AI "decided" very early it was taking too much damage from my 8.8 lines and reverted to attack unprotected or lightly protected units.  

But maybe the "funniest" thing I've seen with v758 in terms of air budget consequences, and I did see it in two matches, was Luxembourg joining the Allies in 1943 and unleashing a horde of, safely, over a hundred fighter units on whoever they found.
The only factor that avoided a catastrophe - or two - was that they quickly ran out of Otto and became quiet.

[valorius]

That's not even the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that the AI has literally hundreds of squadrons sitting over 1000 miles from any fighting at all, guarding a totally uncontested and inconsequential region of the map against a country that never even participated in WWII, while leaving their own capitals and frontiers completely devoid of air power.



This has been a persistent problem for a long time, for many versions going back a couple years, but it's never been this bad.

When I was playing as the US, i was getting approx. 3k production per turn as the US player by about turn 150ish, but i was also dumping a ton into R&D as well.

[valorius]

Apr 14, 2021 14:48:43 GMT teophrastusbombastus said:

Apr 14, 2021 0:15:30 GMT valorius said:

ZERO fighter interference from the allies in my operations. Now, I am using air defense units, but there is literally NO amount of AD you can use to protect yourself from that many fighters.

Phrase 1 - I wish that at least once I would get such a thing.

Phrase 2 - About that I made reference just a few days ago.
When they keep on coming until they shred whatever they have found you can just watch.
In the old days of playing v758, sometimes it was even better because the B-17s paved the way for Tacs to finish the job much more efficiently than fighters.
I just watched my lines of 8.8s at 15 strength melt away... and usually the units they were trying to protect went next turn.
In other matches AI "decided" very early it was taking too much damage from my 8.8 lines and reverted to attack unprotected or lightly protected units.  

But maybe the "funniest" thing I've seen with v758 in terms of air budget consequences, and I did see it in two matches, was Luxembourg joining the Allies in 1943 and unleashing a horde of, safely, over a hundred fighter units on whoever they found.
The only factor that avoided a catastrophe - or two - was that they quickly ran out of Otto and became quiet.

Give me your email address and ill send you the save game and eqp file so you can see for yourself.

The allies have placed their massive, massive, MASSIVE fighter strength literally 1000 miles from the fighting (closest axis forces are on the western border of Turkey and northern border of Greece).

The allies have hundreds of fighter units on 2 fields on the border of turkey and syria. For....reasons?

In my game the allies just fly their level bombers over my defended cities in ones and 2's and get wiped from the sky.

When i initially invade minor powers they use their fighters on ground attacks, as they should, and i wipe them out with luftwaffe counter attacks.

The problem is the main allied powers- france and uk, place all their fighters far, far, far from the fight, where they are never any factor whatsoever.

When i finally get to these super remote areas, i just take all the surrounding airfields with lone ground units. then take the airfield where the fighters are, and they just run out of fuel and die en masse a couple turns later.

Meanwhile, France and the UK leave Paris and London completely and totally undefended, at least until it is far, far too late.

I have to give the AI 2 production bonus so that they have enough money left over, after buying all these totally ineffective fighter units in the middle of nowhere, to actually fight me where the fighting is actually going on.

[valorius]

As a side note, in this current game im playing, the French and UK AI are utterly obsessed with submarines. I have a Battleship surrounded by six air defense light cruisers ships (ASW capable) off the coast of Wilhelmshaven, and the AI has so many subs surrounding the task force that it cannot even move.

I'm slaughtering allied subs wholesale to the point that this task force is now all 3 and 4 star ships, but the task force is completely hemmed in by a swarm of submarines.

[valorius]

THEO: Part of the problem is that the default PG eqp file greatly overestimates the ground defense of US level bombers (And the italian P108), and does not include any of the heavy AA guns, or even 2nd gen AA guns employed by all sides in the war.

In the stock file, the 11 AA 8.8 or 90mm are as good as you can get for AD. In my custom file, I have heavy air defense units with air attack/air defense ratings all the way up to 14. Examples:

German 12.8cm: 14 AA, 14 AD.
US 120mm Stratosphere gun: 14 AA, 14 AD
Soviet 122mm: 14 AA, 14 AD
British 3.7" MkII: 13 AA, 13 AD

Those are all static guns for strategic defense with 0 movement and 4 range.

Then there are your 2nd generation mobile units like the US 90mm M2, German FlaK 36, or even the FlaK 41 (AA variant of the PaK41 ATG)
These have 12 or 13 air defense ratings.

I've also made an AF 3" AD gun with 3 range, 10 AA/10 AD available to all nations, and a ATG variant with 2 range 6gd/10ad 10 init, 10sa 15ha

I've also made AA units such as the US m16, British 40mm SPAD, Soviet Z-25/2 AA, German Sdkfz 20/4 available as ground transport units, to represent organic AA tracks integrated into mechanized infantry companies. 

These are required to deal with radial powered heavily armored fighter bombers like the P47, etc.

I have a universal system ive applied all across the board for AD units, AAA units and all aircraft that is far more balanced than the default PG or Konzev files.

[valorius]

*PARIS UNDEFENDED*


TURN 161: German Tiger Units enter Paris en masse.

The defenses that the French have put up at their capitol....despite having 212 Fighter sqns in the field....?

1x Foreign legion unit. 2x 3" AT gun units.

That's it.

In fact, of 304 total Frankish units in the field, 212 of them are French fighter units.

Where are these swarms of fighters?

ALGERIA!

At an airfield in the middle of the desert, attached to a non supply city. All of them....at one airfield.

France is on the brink of total defeat, and literally 90% of their forces are thousands of miles away in Algeria. Meanwhile, the Axis has not one single unit of any kind in Africa. Not one single unit of any kind in the Med either.

French/UK AI unit placement is completely broken.

So is French/UK allocation of forces. I love an airforce as much as the next guy, but over 90% of total deployed forces fighters? And thousands of miles from the fight? Guarding a single totally non critical city hex/airfield? In the middle of a desert?

Baffling.

And all the while, the Luftwaffe has total local air supremacy after the first turn or two of invasion of secondary Allied countries. UK and France not offering these countries any assistance or support at all, after these secondary countries join the Allies.

*Save game file available upon request*

[jeff]

Valorius: First of all. Are you running version 770 ?
I just ran 50 turns with the AI putting every single production point into R/D. (Including the first turn bonus pretty much.) Giving the AI x2 prooduction.
Turn 50 Germany 716 production (x2 normal) 383 R/D.
            USA 889 production (x2 normal) 447 R/D invested.
            UK 625 production '' '' 333 R/D.

I will run another 100 turns tomorrow, but I still do not see how the US is going to get 9,800 production a turn. Are you sure about that number ?

Have not read all the previous post yet, but I did see the part about Tigers entereing Paris on turn 156. That's like Mid-1940 ?
If you get a chance zip the entire Europe_1930 folder, and send me a copy. I re-build the .eqs files from your equipment file, but there are a few tweaks I have to make
manually. (The AI HQ are used by ANY country , so all have them. (Even Axis countries, etc.))

I was getting on earlier this week to talk about my game as the Germans. I think I play a bit differently. I took Poland, Invaded Denmark late fall.
Had a bit of a slow down when the Danes built a nasty fort where I wanted to go. Italy is staying neutral so far. (Late 1939) I was just going to invade Norway in the winter
but the USA declared War on Norway throwing it into the Axis camp. I started creeping into France Early 1940. This is the first time I have ever played the game I have
had doubts as to easily winning. Usually by Aug. 1940 I had conquered Poland, France, GB, half of Russian, and was thinking about the final battle against Iceland.

A Few years ago, and some versions ago I beat Europe as the Turks in less than 3 years. Then took over the pathetic remains of the US forces, and took it all back again.
So, I was pretty happy ....

I am interested in looking at your results closer.

[valorius]

TURN 167 AXIS, Calander date is Jan 19, 1941. R&D date is Nov 1943.

I have 173 R&D invested in Recon and Fighters, and 1 R&D invested in tanks, for a total of 347 R&D.

I'm getting about 1000ish production per turn as Germany.

I was wrong about that 9000 per turn for the US, when i checked in on them they had 9k unspent. They're actually getting about 1250 per turn. My sorry for sending you on that wild goose chase!

When I play as Axis i focus entirely on the East early in the war. Poland, the Baltic states, Hungary and Romania are my first targets.
As i've said elsewhere, all i do in the west is defend along the border with France. I put massed heavy guns on the East of the Rhine and let the French immolate themselves trying to cross the Rhine.

The UK has been totally fixated on clearing out my fleet at Wilhelmshaven with subs.

I'll email you my eqp file *still unfinished but most relevant units have been added and/or reworked) and Europe 1939 folder later today, as well as my current save game file.

[valorius]

The biggest problem by far is the AI's total misallocation of fighter units.

Not only is it buying way too many of them, it's putting them thousands of miles from the fighting.

90% of the entire french military is fighters, and all of them are in Algeria. At one airfield.

*Files sent Jeff* (keep in mind the eqp file is not complete)

PS: You mentioned forts: I have flame thrower units in my Eqp file for dealing with fortifications. Every major nation has some.

[jeff]

Valorius: I was just looking over your turn 167. How did those fighter even get over there. I don't think they can fly from france, or Malta to Syria can they ?
I did not see any allied aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean either. I checked your options, and it looks like Build in home nation only is set.
I do not think I have ever seen fighters over in the Mid-East before that. Well, maybe the AI would build a couple on turn 1, but not usually.

I will play it a few turns, and see how they managed to get over there.

[jeff]

I just flew a few turns. Again, there does not seem to be any way for the fighters to even get over there. No staging airfields from Malta to Syria.
Another puzzler....the German AD Cruisers are Light Capital Ships. But the units on the purchase screen have an '8' naval attack. Value used against subs.
The ships deployed AD Cruisers have 15 Naval Attack.
You don't have a turn 10 to send me do you ?

[valorius]

Apr 19, 2021 1:40:37 GMT jeff said:

Valorius: I was just looking over your turn 167. How did those fighter even get over there. I don't think they can fly from france, or Malta to Syria can they ?
I did not see any allied aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean either. I checked your options, and it looks like Build in home nation only is set.
I do not think I have ever seen fighters over in the Mid-East before that. Well, maybe the AI would build a couple on turn 1, but not usually.

I will play it a few turns, and see how they managed to get over there.

I do not use home hexes only option Jeff, not sure how the options page has that set, but it should not be. I have noticed that it sets itself to that option every once in a while on it's own.

The french fighters were bought and placed there by the AI.

Also check the border of Syria and Turkey. The UK has hundreds of fighter squadrons deployed there too.

PS: UK is defending the hell out of London. It's a sea of Matilda 2's, AD and heavy artillery pieces. 

Something France most definitely did not do.